Comment from A Dark In The Light
Time: November 26, 2008, 2:42 pm

I’m with you Cody. Here’s an excerpt from an email I sent to the drummer from my mid-level Boston local band the other day, in response to a booking guy who said that if we didn’t sell out the room, we would never play there again on a weekend without the help of a headliner offering the show:

So the old one-shot deal, huh? That’s why Boston is a shitty place to be in an up-and-coming band. We’re up-and-coming, but we’re not there yet, so WHERE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO PLAY? Are we supposed to never shoot higher than week nights, and just gather 21+ drinking fans one-by-one on shitty nights until we can play a weekend, and never ask until we already have the following? So bands with no draw are supposed to play the nights with no draw? How is that a solution for an ailing scene? We’re only supposed to only ride coattails if we can’t sell out a weekend? Well how do we do that? By asking for handouts from the TINY number of bands that can both A) Sell the place out and B) Want to continue to play at places like O’Brien’s and throw bones to small-time bands like us? Look at Motherboar: they could help us hugely, but have no motivation to do so. What do we offer that handful of bands, hmm? The shitty little gigs we can get without gambling what little reputation we’ve worked so hard to build? What are we supposed to do when, even while riding the coattails of bigger bands, the best we can get are mid-level, out-of-synch bands who need a little help?

Where do promoters think that bands and their fans come from? Do they assume that we and other bands who take chance on a big gig are churning up a buzz WITHOUT playing shows, like on blogs or something? Does he think there’s like this underground thing that’s feeding his precious BARS? Or do you just need to be a band with a lot of bored drinker friends in order to break in and get to that first established level of trust? I feel like these clubs just take and take and take - and never give back anything except, you know, an empty room and whatever door money the show makes. These clubs are part of the business side, but they are not part of the community side. They might as well advertise themselves as room rental services, and charge $500 up-front. At least then they wouldn’t be purporting to be places where people come for music, because that’s not the truth. They don’t connect with their consumers, they don’t do any kind of work to retain or foster scenes or sub-scenes.

Music + Business + Alcohol = Retarded scene. Then again, I guess that’s the ceiling, right? I guess that’s all that’s out there, right? Lame.

Or is there another way? I think there is, but it hasn’t come to fruition yet. Here’s to hoping that 2009 will bring us closer to finding it…

Comment from cody
Time: November 26, 2008, 6:43 pm

Wow, nice write up man, I appreciate you sharing that with us. It is true that the scene really needs a way to become more hospitable. I mean even the greats of modern metal started somewhere right? Supporting your local scene can only help with growth and better shows!

Comment from TBAM
Time: November 26, 2008, 7:56 pm

I’m not sure what it’s like in America (As I am in Australia), but here we don’t have that unless it is an “unspoken agreement” on larger festivals. Here, you pretty much don’t get a chance to play anything anywhere unless you have a fan base. There are a few pubs scattered across Sydney who play local metal, but it’s the same people every time, even the band’s are full of incestuous dippings from other former bands. You can only make it big (when I say Big, I mean, you still earn no money, but people will show up to your shows outside of your “home town” and know your stuff), when you’ve been in several bands beforehand.

The problem with Pay to Play is it not only limits the good bands, but it can promote bad bands. If a band manages to scrounge $100,000 together (somehow, some local bands do, they mortgage their houses yada yada), even if they’re crap, they can get a spot on some of the biggest festivals. There was a band from around here (I can’t remember their name, that’s how good they were) who managed to get the money together and went and played in Whacken Festival. All of a sudden people thought they were good.

Though, like most Aussie metal bands, they broke up soon after and each member went into another band where they only got anywhere because they were “from that band that played at whacken festival once despite them being aussie”.

Anyways, I hope things are better over there in America. Because local metal is most of the time crap, and even if it’s good, they break up every time they are on the verge of becoming successful (e.g. Allegiance, Cryogenic, I Killed the Prom Queen).

Psycroptic are probably our best export, yet most of the people here just wank off to the technicality in their shows rather than try and support any good kind of music.

The stigma here is very much “make it overseas before you make it here, otherwise you’ll go nowhere”.

Anyways, i think i’ve lost what I meant to say in the first place.

Comment from cody
Time: November 26, 2008, 8:49 pm

TBAM - No man, you make sense. I have never been to Australia, and it’s a shame that it’s so hard to make it in that country. Luckily there have been some good exports like Psycroptic, The Berzerker, Mortal Sin and a few others. I think Australia just needs to catch up with Europe and America in terms of embracing metal. Yes, you guys have a scene, but it seems like it’s not very well respected there as a whole.

Comment from TBAM
Time: November 30, 2008, 6:55 pm

Psycroptic, for example, get more support from the metalcore / hardcore kids and mathcore fanboys than metalheads here.

The kids, even though they may be misguided, buy all their CDs, all their T-shirts, go nuts at the shows, wheras the metalheads stand at the side / back, headbanging away, or more often than not, standing with folded arms pretending the music is “just alright” or that they are somehow better than the band on stage, and definately feel that their better than the hardcore/metalcore kids at the front who are actually going off. The Metalheads probably ripped the CDs off a friend instead of purchasing them, then gloat about how extreme their CD collection is.

The metal scene is largely a joke, because it is so incestuous, and everyone is trying to be the bands that they listen to instead of trying to be the music they want to express. You have the Slayer wannabe’s, the Metallica/Testament wannabe’s, the Symphony X / Iron Maiden wannabe’s, you have the Job for a Cowboy wannabe’s, the Suffocation Wannabe’s etc etc.
But the thing is, very few of the musicians musicianship is any good for the music to be taken seriously.
It’s a recurring cycle of the bands that have decent musicianship make it reasonably big, get all the good support slots continuously, but only play 2 - 3 times a year, release all their material overseas first. Then they either move overseas, or break up for some reason and form another band who ends up doing the same thing.
Devolved are a great tech-death-metal band from around here, however as soon as they got recognised overseas they started playing there more than here, now I think they have broken up because the drummer made friends with Dino Cazares and is living the American metal life.

Anyways, just a whinge, hehe.

Comment from cody
Time: November 30, 2008, 8:22 pm

Let it out man, let it out. haha

Comment from Nate
Time: December 1, 2008, 9:48 am

Psycroptic is fuckin’ awesome.

There definitely needs to be a lot more support for small-time bands…good article Cody. TBAM and “A Dark in the Light” — great comments.

I can assure you though, TBAM, that most of the metalheads standing in the back crossing their arms are more concerned by the hardcore kids in the moshpit doing their stupid hardcore dancing and making the show less fun. Metalheads like to get in there and do some real moshing and not get punched in the face and spit on by some punk with a bandana covering his face. Hardcore/deathcore fans (mostly a younger crowd) for the most part are complete dipshits with no concern about how good the band is, just how much havoc they can create during the breakdown. Fuck them…moshing is so much better at shows with a majority of metalheads.

Comment from Gabe
Time: December 3, 2008, 6:54 pm

Having owned a non- pay to play club, I have to disagree. I booked some awesome bands and threw some legendary shows. I ended up over $120,000 poorer and had to close my doors. If it is done with a set of scruples,pre selling tickets can be a win / win situation for bands and club promoters. Rent, energy, sound reinforcement,staff, taxes, bar stock and supplies,and hundreds of other details that go into running even a nominally successful venue cost an OBSCENE amount of money. my expenditures were astronomical! I tried to do the idealistic thing and support the scene, but in the end , all i ended up with was a bar no one drank at,
an almost empty live room every weekend, and good bands that decided to go with pre sale clubs as a way to insure that they got the pay and exposure they were worth. the amount of apathy on the part of the average self styled “music fan” is completely appalling!
Many of the bands it has been my pleasure to know, after playing non pre sale clubs devoid of people have actually turned a profit at places that require them to sell tickets in advance. people who buy tickets in advance tend to show up to venues to catch their favorite local bands. quite often, the bands that protest pre sale systems are the ones who can’t be bothered to put in the time and effort it takes to get their name out.
there are many bands that expect fame and fortune to get handed to them just because they decided to pick up some instruments and write some songs. Having also been a working musician for a number of grueling years, I can say that i have seen both sides of the issue.i have actually made more money doing pre sale tickets than just getting a flat rate or a small cut from the box offrice, most small to mid sized venues are “pay to play” in order to keep their doors open. the real enemies of the live local music industry are people who don’t support the local music that they claim to be fans of by not going to see the bands that work hard to bring music to this world. without these clubs, there would be no professional live music scene for anyone to enjoy, aside from the occasional backyard kegger that inevitably ends in a fight or being broken up by police for violation of local noise ordinances. supporting your local scene means buying merchandise, recordings, and concert tickets from your favorite local bands and going to see them at a venue.this is the only way people in the industry can afford to bring fans the music and good times they love and deserve!

Comment from cody
Time: December 3, 2008, 9:37 pm

Gabe - Fantastic comment, and it’s very difficult to contest an opinion of an actual club owner and musician. However, I still can’t swallow the whole idea of making bands work. I mean, what do the promoters actually do in this situation? I know bands who not only have to pay a fee to play and bring an audience, but they also have to advertising themselves, AND bring their pown PA! I know I can’t speak for people like you and others, but requiring bands to bring money into your facility by doing anything but just playing is beyond me. Again, I am no promoter, but being as it’s their business, isn’t it the responsibility of the promoter to make money for their place of service? I’d love for you to explain your opinion a bit more Gabe if you could.

Comment from TBAM
Time: December 4, 2008, 8:17 pm

The success of bars and clubs (through my experience) is largely to do with the promoter, or how the club is marketed. It may be honorable to have small-time-up-and-coming bands on all the time and to “support the local scene” however it’s a double edged sword.

These days, people don’t want to go out of their way to see a local band they have never heard of, just to see what they are like. People go to shows because they either know someone there, know the band, or there is something else going on there and they happen to catch the show. Over time, the band gets disillusioned at playing to their friends all the time, the friends get disillusioned of spending their money to see their friends band over and over again. Eventually the band breaks up or moves on to different venues.

I have seen more than a few pubs and clubs come and go, I would like to say that I know what would make a successful club / bar, however some of the one’s I loved or thought were the best have shut their doors.

It seems the big winner for a club is not just versatility but location, location, location. You also need a good promoter and consistent “name” acts playing atleast once a month. When I say “name” acts, i mean bands named in the local street press. Bands that pull 200 - 400 people without too much worry. The big bands make the small bands want to play.

The versatility often makes the friends and audience have a reason to stay after the bands play, or come back on another night.

I think (in australia at least), gone are the days of the “venue”. The successful venues are bars and clubs with stages. That operate night clubs, bistro’s, pokies, karaoke, have a big PA and every now and then get a reasonably big / national act (sometimes international) in.

One of the most successful venues locally (apart from the big arena venues) is a claub called the Gaelic club. It has a normal pub on the side with food, sports bar, yada yada, then it has a separate room on the side that can fit up to 500 people, a massive PA, two levels and a bar.

It is one of the premiere metal venues, as a lot of the big metal bands that wouldn’t normally come out, play here (like Sunn O))) , Unearth , At the Gates , In Flames , Soilwork , Cryptopsy).

But then again, it too could perhaps be failing.

Perhaps Gabe is stating a different version of pay-to-play.
I don’t consider pre-sale ticket requirements as pay-to-play, pre-sale seems logical to me. Many small local bands don’t have enough word of mouth or advertising pull to draw numbers just from an ad.
I see pay-to-play as the venue saying “Want to play tonight? You’ll need to come up with $500 or we’re putting another band on.

In regards to clubs and bars requiring bands to bring money into the facility, isn’t that unreasonable of an expectation. Bands usually illiminate regular customers, can cause unnecessary wear and tear on the venue and potentially cause damage. If the crowd doesn’t buy drinks, then most nights the club loses money just for giving the band the priviledge to play.

Another reason is, fair enough musicians have spent years and thousands of dollars on tuition and equipment, but the bar often spends $100,000 and more on preparing the club to become a venue or to provide a good sound system for bands to be ABLE to play. They need to recoup this somehow.

But perhaps we are looking into this from the wrong perspective. Big festivals where bands are required to pay $100,000 just to play is ridiculous. Small bars and clubs that require $300 off the band in the form of pre-sale tickets or door-ticket-sales so that they don’t lose money on enabling the band to play is not unreasonable.

A band shouldn’t be able to show up at a club, not expect to contribute to the promotion of the gig, play a show and then expect to get paid for every cent in the dollar even if they don’t pull a crowd.

In the shows i’ve played, the promoter has to pay to book the venue for the night for the show. The promoter then either decides to take a cut out of the door sales, a cut of the drink sales of the night, or takes organises for pre-sale and allocates each band a “target” of sales to break even. If the promoter doesn’t get enough money to pay the venue, the venue doesn’t usually give the promoter too many chances to rebook.

Anyways, once again, i think i’ve lost my point. But I think you get my drift.