Encyclopaedia Metallum – The Purge Has Begun!
Sometime last year, I wrote an article (which can be read here) about the Gestapo standards over at Encyclopedia Metallum, and how the mods over there (and many forum members) were embracing this strict, elitist take on what is and is not metal. While I embraced the concept of the site’s intentions to bring metalheads a site that gives us all free access to in depth metal knowledge, I also criticized their elitist tendencies. In my original article, I made some examples of bands and genres that were often excluded for not being metal enough. The backlash from this was enormous with EM regulars and mods storming over to All Metal Resource in a tizzy to engage us “mallcore kids” in why their reasoning was superior.
Well, I was going to leave this alone. If they wanted to engage us on our turf, I was more than happy to argue with them, but when forum posts started popping up on their site giving me and my site shit, I left it alone and had no intention of re-visiting the topic. However, I would be doing my readers an injustice if I didn’t bring up a recent devlopment over at at Archives. I recently discovered that three bands have been purged from the archives for not being metal enough. These three bands include:
PROTEST THE HERO
BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME
BRING ME THE HORIZON
Their justification for removing these bands?
Nightgaunt (a mod on the site): “Deleted Protest the Hero; the group performs a polyglot style that is some genre other than metal.”
A polyglot style that is some genre other than metal? What the fuck is a polyglot? It’s not a musical term, that’s for damn sure. Oh wait, is this mod simply stating that it’s too ambiguous and technical for it to be metal? What a piece of shit reasoning that is! And oh wait, here’s more: ““Between the Buried and Me” removed on similar grounds as Protest the Hero.” Wha? I guess you’ll have to remove Sikth now from the archives too ri….oh wait, they aren’t there either. As for Bring Me the Horizon, I couldn’t find a reason for their removal. I guess they don’t need an excuse, right?
So who is next in this purge? Will the powers that be actually start listening to the music instead of allowing their minions to make decisions for them? What a joke. Alright “Protectors of the Archives,” come forth and tell me why I am an idiot once more.
CODY
I laugh at all this pettiness in the thread. Let’s put this into perspective. This is a FREE site. In fact, it’s the biggest metal reference site on the internet. Did I mention it’s STILL free? The site owners have been offered money in the past to place ads on the site but remain committed to providing a quality product to the users without having to do so.
A lot of hard work and dedication has gone into the site over the last seven years. It remains an invaluable resource for ALL of us. Yet, people still squabble over bands like “Protest the Hero” and “Suicide Silence.” Face it, we could let those bands back in and then people would still bitch about bands like “Slipknot” and “Disturbed.” If those bands are allowed, people would find NEW bands to latch onto for their martyr-fix.
The point is this; MA has to draw the line. That line is not always clear cut because the nature of the beast. Tough choices have to be made but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. The mods and admins do talk about things and nothing is arbitrary…they have their own forum to discuss things. Yes, there is an arbitrary nature involved and bands do get allowed on the site and then re-evaluated later. ANY band is up for re-evaluation if you present the PROPER case in the proper venue. Bands have been allowed that have been previously rejected and bands have been deleted that have been previously accepted. BUT, sometimes, it is what it is after you’ve made your case.
I laugh at the person who said the site owner’s know what they are doing and then they have “have a bunch of hired guns.” The site’s staff is an eclectic mix of people from various backgrounds and age groups. There are some on the staff that specialize in death metal, black metal, thrash metal and other forms of our favorite genre. Yes, the site is strict on the forum and with its submission. Think of you getting hounded OVER AND OVER about bands like Suicide Silence when the search engine should suffice. People aren’t very cordial about it either. When Suicide Silence WAS in the archives, different users would hound the site with “WHY IS SUICIDE SILENCE IN THE ARCHIVES?” messages. Catch-22.
I thought it was necessary for a little perspective here since most of this seems to be centered on what MA isn’t instead of what it is. What it IS is the best metal resource on the internet, bar none. What it provides YOU is valuable information on bands that you have heard of and bands that you haven’t listened to before. I know lots of people out there have found great bands they’ve never heard thanks to Metal Archives. All of this and the site remains free, without spam or blatant advertising. I’d say it’s a damn fine site.
TheAutumnMead, what you didn’t understand, is that even if you disagree with rules they won’t change, they are still rules. You can talk for as much as you like about them, they won’t change. SO, why would they accept endless discussion about something that cannot be discussed?
About bands being accepted and then taken out, I highly doubt Morrigan or Hellblazer accepted themselves Bring me the Horizon to them take them out. They were accepted by mods who try to follow as best the rules, but if either of the admins always have the veto in case they learn about their acceptance and deem them not metal enough. Sure they may have known about it before, but like the line that had to be drawn has been drawn, it is quite arbitrary, thus they have been divided about it, they may have been temporarily accepted, but then were more convinced of their “non-metalness”.
Also about bands being metal, there is a difference between an industrial band with metal influences and a metal band with industrial or progressive influences. Sure some Slipknot songs may seem metal or have a thrash riff, but that doesn’t make the whole release containing them metal. It’s not because you have progressive elements and/or are aggressive (like screamo or hardcore) that you’re metal either.
Bring me the Horizon is aggressive and all, but I don’t really recognize the riffing as metal.
Also, all of this is not because of personal appreciation of the bands, they were several threads in the past (and one right now) about your favourite non-metal bands, there was even a Rammstein thread in the Tavern and a Kiss one. And I mean, if you don’t draw the line, what will happen? I’m glad they take the “elitist” stance and be sure that everything is metal, than have an already MASSIVE database that more or less often have slowdowns and all to be flooded with a MASSIVE amount of “metal” bands get in the way of the mods’ modding (that would give a shitload more work) and maybe get people there who don’t even listen to metal nor care. Besides, the thing about ENOUGH metal, what is enough and not? You think Slipknot is metal enough but not… say Kiss? That’s a contradiction here, there is always a gray line no matter how you put it about popular opinion and all. If we wanted to be totally sure about everything, why not a All music archives? Oh wait, is noise music? You get it?
I really don’t get that whining thing, sure you are entitled to your opinion, but like the rules state, they won’t change, not anytime soon at least. So arguing with mods or shit about rules is pointless to say the least, the best thing you can do about it is just plain ignore the site and use Wikipedia instead. Anyway those bands don’t really require MA for your enjoyment of them or your search of information.
And damn that guy arguing with Witcher on that other post is dense. How can you talk about dishonesty, contradictions, when he was stating rules all the time? If something has to be contradicting or dishonest, it would be the rules, not those who enforce them and can’t do shit about them. And it brings me to the point about shitting with the mods; they don’t make the rules, only enforce them, starting arguments over rules (which they get tired of over the years and all, you’re not the only one arguing about them, and they have enough work from the beginning – moderating the forums, accepting/moderating reviews, accepting/moderating submission queues, bands etc. – they work their ass off for free, and the only thing you can do is pissing them off by being dense) gets nowhere, you only get their enmity. And shitting over the admins because of something as trivial as not agreeing with their view of what is metal or not is dumb, you should respect them for all the hard work they’ve done to achieve their website, as well as trying to make that v2 version they’ve been working on for eternity as they have limited time. They are totally dedicated to their website (paying it too) and don’t do it for money, they don’t sit on a throne and reign over some sort of metal world. If can’t get passed this and don’t appreciate all their hard work, then it’s your bad.
More clearly, I meant one of your point is about how they decide what is metal ENOUGH, but that means you think said bands are metal ENOUGH because of popular response and how the mainstream sees it. Isn’t the same thing but in an opposite direction? And then comes the question, if Slipknot and Rammstein are to be metal, where to draw the line? Basically, you just push the line back, but what if we push it a bit more? No? Well you’re an elitist then. Ok, can we still push the line? You know, there’s no clear line, saying we’ll put a clear line here because it is how the masses sees it doesn’t make things better, and after is the masses doesn’t see a band as metal doesn’t mean they are less eligible. I don’t get the arguing about such a point, it’s as stupid as those who are like: “Bring me the Horizon sucks big time, we don’t want them on the Archives!!” Thing is, the vast majority on the bands out there suck, so…
Holy jesus this page blew up! Alright, let me get a beer before I start responding…
SumGuy – Just exposing their hypocrisy over there, that’s all. If they want to run their site the way they do, more power to them, but I’ll write about the bullshit that I see on my own site.
Mr Chaos – You are narrow minded, and it will help me sleep at night. The fact that you say UFO and Uriah Heep are more metal than Between the Buried and Me is laughably absurd.
Mordgraven – If MA dropped Celtic Frost, every single cultist on their boards would immediately respond accordingly. It’s a joke. And the funny thing about my opinion is that this is my site, not an informative “encyclopedia” as EM claims to be. There are some critical differences there. But yes, I am the be all end all of metal knowledge.
Matt – I don’t think you had to pay dues to join the Nazi party either, but that doesn’t make it right does it? But seriously, there is a line that needs to be drawn, but personal elitism can’t overtake common sense. EM, you claim is the biggest and best metal resource on the Net, yet its one of the only sites that denies Between the Buried and Me as being metal (and I mean compared to well respected metal sites across the Net). Don’t you think there is something wrong with that? Besides, why would these supposed knowledgeable mods allow every band mentioned in this article to be included on their site for months, if not years, only to have them removed later on? Did they all of a sudden have some grand epiphany?
Evil_Johnny – What makes a metal riff a metal riff? I guarantee that you couldn’t differentiate between what makes a Slayer riff metal and a Slipknot riff not. I GUARANTEE IT. It’s pure bullshit, and you feed into the site’s bullshit. You defend Witcher, yet all Witcher could do was recite the rules and not answer any reasonable question about why certain bands were not metal. Why? Because he couldn’t, instead he blathered on and on about rules on a free website like they were part of a damn constitution. I do respect what EM has achieved, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that they are a quintessential example of music elitism, and its my job as an asshole to call them out on it! Quite simple, isn’t it?
Witcher didn’t made the rules, did you expect him to say: “Yeah you’re right, let’s change the rules”? Cause he couldn’t. Why a clown like Witcher is a mod: http://metal-archives.com/userbands.php?id=15604&nickname=Witcher
I don’t have the proper understanding of english nor a vocabulary extensive enough to explain it, though I can feel it. Past the distortion, heaviness doesn’t make anything metal, there are tons of proof around. I guess that’s because your exploration of the whole metal genre is more or less limited, that’s a thing I realized, the more I listen to metal, the more I am able to fully describe a sound as well as understand the boundaries of genres. Not only metal as a whole, but doom metal, I can clearly see the difference between speed and thrash metal. Such thing as common sense to draw a line between what is metal or not doesn’t exist, well the common sense, is opinion, there’s no black and white in the frontier, if you take in everything around it, that gives the opportunity to everything at the outer edge to be in too. Like I said, you draw a line, in a grey zone, the only thing you can do is not being precise. Why would your opinion of what is metal or not be more true than theirs? Because is encompasses more bands? Because it is more “tolerant”, because it is the opinion of people you don’t know half the metal than we do? And answer me, after putting on the Archives all the bands you want, what if you refuse a band I want there? You only want bands there according to YOUR opinion, it CAN’T be anything else. How do I feed in the websites bullshit? They can do what they want, I couldn’t care less, they could take Iron Maiden out I couldn’t care much either (why would they anyway), cause if I can’t find a band on MA doesn’t mean that I have to stop listening to them or instantly not be able to buy anything from them and get news on the band. I don’t care at the bands they accept or not even if I think they may slightly be metal, I always said that the first refused band they would accept is Slipknot. As far as I remember it wasn’t really metal, but I never tried debating it, neither do I care. But that doesn’t stop some user to disagree with their stance on some bands, and as they can’t do shit about it nor do really care either, well they shut up and continue using the archives without bitching all day long about it.
Funny thing is I wrote an extensive post and you didn’t even try to refute any of my claims, only that I dig their bullshit and couldn’t see the difference between what makes a Slipknot and Slayer riff metal. And you could only say to the others that they were close minded. Ha, I’m sure you could post any riff (that is representative of the whole album, so no thrash riff in a rock album) and I could make a decision on whether or not I think it is metal. Would you agree? Maybe not. Would that make me an elitist? Only if you think refusing the Black Eyed Peas would make me an elitist.
“Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.[1]”
Well, the admins never stated that their opinion on what they think is metal or not to be the be all end all of the genre definition, only that, like I said, it is their opinion. MA has 70 000 bands in their archives, do you really think they are that elitist?
cody, c’mon…you’re not actually trying to draw an analogy between an informative internet metal website and the Nazi party, are you? That’s pretty weak.
I understand what you’re saying about being on the archives for months/years and then getting deleted. It happens. It happens in the opposite direction, as well. For instance, Pitchshifter wasn’t allowed for a while, then accepted a couple years ago. Like I said, bands are always being re-evaluated. I also eluded to the admin/moderator forum that isn’t accessible to regular users. Discussion happens all the time regarding bands and site policy. These bands were merely a victim to clarity on the site’s rule about what does/does not constitute a metal release. Nothing more, nothing less.
So, why the variance? Well, as you know, there are more than a few moderators and all have varying interpretations of what is and what isn’t metal. If a band is borderline, moderators will ask for other moderator opinions. Some moderators are way more involved in the band queue than others.
Evil_Johnny – I am not going to analyze your entire post and reply. I have been getting waves of EM users for over a year now who make the same argument over and over again. I don’t feel like rehashing out the same debate, therefore, I pick and choose what to chat about. And what was the purpose of Witcher’s link? Are you trying to show me that he has some sort of relevance to EM because of the amount of bands he has posted? If that’s the case, check out my link from when I was an active EM member: http://metal-archives.com/userbands.php?id=52&nickname=sirmonarch
There is a clear distinction between what separates a band like Poison. a band who is clearly not metal based on their reliance on pop melodies, a lack of distortion and a base in classic blues rock, and Slipknot, whose guitars are heavily distorted with double bass, blast beats, aggressive vocals, heavy use of the tritone, solos, strong bass riffs to emphasize the rhythm guitar, etc etc etc. There IS a clear distinction between what is metal and what is not, but being able to differentiate between Slayer and Slipknot in terms of their “metalness” cannot be done, because they are both metal. What separates them is popular opinion amongst hardcore metalheads, and that is it. I asked you to differentiate the two as an example, and I knew you wouldn’t be able to do it. By denying a band such as Slipknot or all the others I have made mention of throughout this debate, the mods and founders of EM are demonstrating their elitism. I am not trying to change their ways, but instead to bring to light that EM is not the foundation that many claim it to be.
Matt – I was, but only in a half serious manner. My point was that EM being free doesn’t take away its shortcomings. And your claim that there are rules that constitute what is and isn’t metal are silly, because there are no real rules to follow on that site about what constitutes metal and what does not, but merely guidelines on whether or not a certain band can be wedged into the site. I have debated the validity of the mods and the site’s rules quite a bit on here, so I will end on that note.
cody, yes, there are no rules to follow on the site about what constitutes metal and what does not. Again, discussion does go on in the moderator section.
“These bands were merely a victim to clarity on the site’s rule about what does/does not constitute a metal release. Nothing more, nothing less.”
I used to be a user on MA, but got banned just for asking why people actually hated christianity (I’m not a christian myself though). And all I got for replies were the same parroted “opinions” (ironically like their posts such as “I don’t consider X band metal because [insert spoon fed "opinion" here]) .
Right now, I only use the site for trading (under a new account) and the database for researching about bands.
“There is a clear distinction between what separates a band like Poison. a band who is clearly not metal based on their reliance on pop melodies, a lack of distortion and a base in classic blues rock, and Slipknot, whose guitars are heavily distorted with double bass, blast beats, aggressive vocals, heavy use of the tritone, solos, strong bass riffs to emphasize the rhythm guitar, etc etc etc. There IS a clear distinction between what is metal and what is not, but being able to differentiate between Slayer and Slipknot in terms of their “metalness” cannot be done, because they are both metal.”
That’s your opinion, about how much metal Slipknot are. Solos? Are kidding me? That must one of the weakest element for something to be more metal, there are solos in every other genres except hip hop/rap and its variants. Aggressive vocals? What is screamo? Hardocre punk like Citizens Arrest or DRI (which are on the archives because of their crossover albums)? Billy Talent? And fuck, why would that be something metal? Black Sabbath never used harsh vocals as Iron Maiden, Metallica or Motorhead. There are blast beats in blues, or was it jazz, for sure, it isn’t a metal exclusive thing. Some Citizens Arrest use heavily distorted guitars (heaviness is not metal exclusive either) as well as some noise projects. I guess they don’t use tritone riffs 60% of the time on any album. Strong bass riff? What do you mean by strong bass riff? Bass means nothing, bass isn’t even prominent most of the time. To emphasize rhythm guitars? Because that’s a metal thing? Do you only listen to “metal” To say there is a clear distinction clearly makes you an ignorant. Avenged Sevenfold is ten times less metal than Slipknot.
To me, a metal riff is one which has distortion, heaviness (need those but that doesn’t immidiatlely makes them metal), presence, with of course riffs that aren’t (at least not in majority, otherwise metal would only be an influence, like Finntroll isn’t a folk band but a metal one) rock, punk, grudge and don’t solely rely on simplistic grooves as rhythms. Those rhythms aren’t a metal thing as they are an element of… universal riffing just used ad nauseum, as if someone was only soloing ie Emmure, Between the Buried and Me’s rhythm riffs, I find their melodic riffs quite metal, well that makes them half metal to me I guess, I’m not quite sure of my stance there. Saying heavy bands are metal (like you said about Slipknot). You’re like thinking like all those deathcore fans who think metal is aggressive, violent music and think motorhead are merely rock, truth is, they were metal long before those bands. Deciding what is metal or not goes in both sense, those who are more leaning on rock and those who are more leading on hardcore breakdowns, it’s not because Scorpion is less aggressive that they are less metal and less eligible.
About Witcher, I was only saying Mods don’t get to be choosed lightly like some like to think because they like to make an ass of themselves (a BIG one). And what about the MA relevancy? No one is “relevant” there unless you are an admin or a mod for obvious reasons.
And they can’t be elitist if they don’t think their view should be advocated as total truth, which they don’t. That’s the whole point of elitism and it is clearly stated somewhere on their site that it’s only how they view it, that if you don’t agree so be it. Then where’s the elitism you’re talking about? I’m beginning to think you have a gripe against them because they don’t accept your favouritie bands. Get over it, it’s not some kind of conspiracy against mainstream “metal” to kill your fav bands.
Clear distinction between what is metal and not, I’m still laughing on this one. You could have taken the time your whining about this and start your one “deathcore” archives.
Man, this website HAS blown up. I look to the archives as a great source for information regarding metal bands. Not all the information on the site is correct, but that is to be expected when you have a site that is as large as EM. I’m not a big fan of their standards (as I’ve made apparent in previous posts), but I think that the fact that it has fostered all this discussion has at least proven the relevancy of the site. I still cannot understand, however, how Def Leppard exists on the site. I know that its existence has been explained, but seriously. Even if you listen to the lone album that accounts for their inclusion “On Through The Night,” it is stadium rock. Def Leppard was only considered metal for that album, because they played their music in England when the NWOBHM scene was flourishing. If anyone listened to “On Through the Night” based on its merits to determine whether the music is metal or hard rock, it would most definitely be considered hard rock. The album was clearly stadium rock. Also, it is the only album the band did that qualifies them for the site. Considering what they were after that album, and what they are now, it is almost unbelievable that they are listed on EM. It actually flies in the face of the site standards, because the band was only included based on their inclusion in a metal scene in Britain, not on their music merits. Maybe whether a band is consistently metal, or stays true to metal as a genre should be considered. But as everyone has said, EM makes the rules for their site, and that’s their choice. But in the end, All this makes for interesting discussion among passionate metal fans, doesn’t it?
Wah wah… Butthurt. WTF does it matter if your band is on the archives? Do you up your cred by being able to point and say “lol this band r on M-A so it IS METIL HA!”? Really…
Evil_Johnny, damn you really sink your teeth into semantics, don’t you? I was giving a single example as to why a band is NOT metal (i.e. Poison), and how you can potentially describe a metal band (i.e. Slipknot and Slayer), in contrast to saying Slipknot is not a metal band with no good reason for having that opinion. Sure you can dissect all the elements I spoke of that partially make up metal, but that wasn’t my point. I made my point by describing why Slipknot is metal (and none of these elements can be disputed as NOT being metal), and by taking those same descriptors and applying them to Slayer (and vice versa). Get it?
EM doesn’t give a shit about justifying their actions, despite it being designed as a source of knowledge for the metal community. It’s very hypocritical, and I felt like calling them on it and have yet to have a explanation beyond “it’s a private website, if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.”
I’m pretty sure “Evil_Johnny” is a socketpuppet alias of Witcher. Compare the Evil_Johnny & Witcher writing formats/syntax: the same poor grammar, the same drawn-out sentences with serial commas and the same “I’m not wrong because the rules are the rules” evasion to every point. (It was never about the rules, it’s the EM/MA admin’s “do as I say, not as I do” attitude in enforcing them.)
It appears cody now has fresh essay material on EM/MA: a ranking admin over there had to turn to sockpuppet trollery because too many people beat up his previous incarnation.
(different Matt)-
I gotta love the fact this is being debated. Maybe thats why many seem to see the MA as elitist, they seem to like to cut off the debates at crucial moments. Well here it goes.
My belief: Metal Archives defines metal as a lifestyle and culture as well as music. Since a lot of the metalcore bands come from a more “prep skater” background, (they have short hair, etc), they are seen as “alien” from the typical “misanthrope loner” stereotype that exemplifies metalheads. This is just my belief.
Same with the brats that made up the nu metal bands- but the difference there is that Nu Metal had alot less REAL metal influences than much of metalcore bands..A slowed down half ass groove metal riff with rap vocals and grunge verses is WAY less metal than any of Between the Buried and Me’s metally songs. I would almost break it down like this:
Protest the Hero- VOcals definitely NON metal at times (a lot of the time, its closer to something like Mars Volta “emo-like” vocals)- so since that dominates, it makes them less metal than BTBAM.
BTBAM- metal guitars, riffs (a few breakdowns here and there, but definitely closer to the metal side of metal core) other progressive influences- vocals mixed between a hardcore and metal style. Way more metal than many of the bands on there though..
Other bands that were mentioned? No idea about Suicide Silence, etc..
Slipknot? While I’m not a fan, I still think their guitar tone is definitely metal. Its not noise rock/discordant math rock type stuff such as Jesus Lizard- its not a grunge tone like Nirvana, its definitely the highly saturated tone that is closer to groove and some death metal. The riffs? While they’re not my thing (havent heard the newer albums, only heard the first album (Roadrunner one) when it came out) they are definitely a groove/nu hybrid (with a bit of thrash and death metal in there). The vocals, double bass (the WAY its played, doesnt mean other musics dont have double bass, but the WAY Slipknot play is is DERIVED from older metal) blastbeats (Cmon, blast beats are very rare in jazz as it was, and the blasts done were not the same as the way a band like Slipknot would play them), solos (nowadays), growls (not well done as far as my tastes go, but still metal nevertheless). All this together would point me to the direction that they are a metal band. SUre I’m no fan, and there are bands that have the elements that they have that do it much better (namely, a lot of death metal bands) but the elements the way they’re mixed together definitely lead me to believe they’re metal. The WAY they do it, sure its closer to what an elitist would call “mallcore” (and I can see their side too), but seperate the elements of some of the bands that ARE submitted, and put them together and Slipknot definitely qualifies for submission. Now the way they mix their elements, and the way they present them, this is a complicated issue, and this is where its so hard to discuss what makes metal and what makes “false metal/mallcore/non metal”- but this is something that MA doesn’t seem to explain/address in the right way.
matt wrote: “Since a lot of the metalcore bands come from a more “prep skater” background, (they have short hair, etc), they are seen as “alien” from the typical “misanthrope loner” stereotype that exemplifies metalheads.”
Correct and incorrect. As a self-described elitist metalhead, I could see how it would be pathetic to see fans of Hawthorne Heights or My Chemical Romance try to emulate the Swedish or Florida death metal sound – at the same time, many “true” metal bands don’t even fit the “intimidating” metal image stereotype. Take Katatonia for instance. That entire band looks like a bunch of emo or groove metal kids, yet the group comes from a gothic/doom/death metal background. Emperor drummer Trym doesn’t look like much of a bad-ass, but we all know he is behind the drumset. Or Paul Masvidal of Cynic – it seems the brush of a feather would give a guy like him a bruise! Is he John Mayer’s back-up singer (joke)? Or Satyr of Satyricon, who now looks like a lounge lizard.
At the end of the day, it really has to do with: 1.) the roots of the band/musicians, and 2.) the sincerity of the band/musicians. In other words, dissecting the “poser” factor.
In Metal Archives/EM case, it’s the right hand simply not knowing what the fuck the left is going. They don’t want metalcore bands on their site (Morrigan once pleaded for no more “-core” bands) yet Job For A Cowboy, Whitechapel and a shitload of other bands like that still have pages on their site. Inconsistent and hypocritical.
So how can anyone (of either side of the debate) take Metal Archives seriously?
cody – How exactly am I narrow-minded? Because I don’t see enough metal elements in those bands to consider them metal? You do realize I didn’t say anything about whether or not I enjoyed them, yeah? But hey, maybe I misinterpreted what you said. But let’s lay of the personal attacks, yeah?
You make an interesting argument between Slayer and Slipknot – and someone to say that Slipknot don’t have a metal influence is definitely a bit off the mark. Although, I wouldn’t call double-bass a defining point between metal and not metal. Then we’d have to call a heap of doom bands not metal. Nor do I see the vocals used in Slipknot as metal – “aggressive”? Perhaps they are, but in a way closer relating to possibly hardcore and hip-hop (Corey Taylor uses a lot of “rapping” in terms of vocal patterns in his singing.). There’s a lot of metal bands out there who don’t have particularly aggressive vocals, too. Bruce Dickinson and Blaze Bailey of Iron Maiden, and Kevin Heybourne of Angel Witch, for instance. Now, don’t jump to the conclusion I’m saying “Hurr hurr, aggressive vocals aren’t in metal!” They are, definitely – but certain styles really seem to be part of what make up the metal genre – E.G, black metal shrieks, death growls, Udo’s “Bawling” as it is sometimes called, etc. What Corey Taylor and the other vocalists of Slipknot (Can’t think of their names right now, although I used to know them.) don’t often seem to hit the mark as “metal”, exactly – and so I don’t see just “aggressive vocals” as a defining point for the metal genre.
The blast beat is a jazz invention, and used in genres other than metal. But yes, Slipknot did take that from a metal influence, definitely! Some of their solos seem to have metal influences, and yes, there is the tritone. But the make-up of a lot of their riffs sure as hell ain’t metal. It’s interesting you mentioned the blues rock base of Poison as something that makes them un-metal. You do realize metal evolved primarily out of blues rock, yeah? It’s an important feature in a lot of metal subgenres.
Tom Araya has sited Paul Dianno – an important figure in early NWOBHM – as an influence, and in the early works you can also hear a bit of Rob Halford. It’s true, there is also some punk attitude in his vocal delivery, although his style, unlike that in Slipknot, is more parts metal than not.
The guitar work in Slayer is also heavily influenced by Priest, as well as Sabbath and Iron Maiden. Hell, Slayer’s riffs are often riffs by those previous bands rearranged and repackaged, as Kerry King has stated.
So yeah…Slayer are more metal than Slipknot, and that’s why they are on the archives.
TheAutumnMad, I see your point, and see how you came to that conclusion. But like I said before, the rules of the Archives is a release has to be more than 50% metal. This means that, potentially any band, including ANY core band, Slipknot, KoRn, or Johnny Cash can make it onto the Archives if the influences on over 50% of the songs are more part metal than anything else. Now, am I don’t pretend to be the most knowledgeable on death metal, but the mods (possibly those that specialize in death metal.) have seen this in JFAC and Whitechapel, and therefore allowed their inclusion. This may be for one release, as a band is accepted for one Full Length (Or it may be EP, as well) that meets the criteria set forth.
MrChaos – You are narrow minded because you legitimately seem to think that the bands we are discussing are actually less than 50% metal. This isn’t an insult, its an observation. If you say BTBAM, Protest the Hero or any of the other largely discussed bands in this debate are less than 50% metal, then you are very narrow minded and elitist.
As for to your points: The items I used to describe metal were merely examples between the two bands, as I mentioned already. Obviously there are metal bands that don’t use double bass and aggressive vocals, but all the descriptors I used are commonplace between the two bands being discussed, so to say that one outweighs the other in metalness has yet to be convincingly argued.
Slipknot members have cited Godflesh, Neurosis, Metallica, Slayer along with death and black metal. Joey Jordison played in the thrash band Modifidious (which is on EM). If you can’t pick out the extreme metal influences in Slipknot’s music, especially their latter day albums, then you need your ears cleaned. And remember, according to the rules you guys follow like the Bible, you only need at least one album to be considered metal to qualify for the archives.
Witcher has not been around the site since July. Coincidentally, this is around the same time the “purge” has begun.
Witcher accepted a lot of these bands that you complain have been purged. Put two and two together.
And, for the record, Witcher is not an admin. There are only six admins on the site. The rest are moderators.
Mr. Chaos, it’s obvious that you’re close-minded and an elitist because your opinion differs from cody’s. Stop being an elitist.
I’m going to cut and paste this one more time because you don’t seem to get it (forget the imaginary 50 percent rule…there is no such thing).
Comment from Matt
Time: November 4, 2009, 12:39 am
cody, yes, there are no rules to follow on the site about what constitutes metal and what does not. Again, discussion does go on in the moderator section.
“These bands were merely a victim to clarity on the site’s rule about what does/does not constitute a metal release. Nothing more, nothing less.”
Witcher = Evil_Johnny = MrChaos …
… and I’m sure that won’t be the end of it. Maybe Witcher could choose “Señor_Choad” as his next screen name? That would be the most fitting of all.
In response to:
“MATT: Witcher has not been around the site since July. Coincidentally, this is around the same time the “purge” has begun…Witcher accepted a lot of these bands that you complain have been purged. Put two and two together…And, for the record, Witcher is not an admin. There are only six admins on the site. The rest are moderators.”
Whatever Witcher is over at MA, he tirelessly defends the site rules (which are often broken by Witcher and other high-ranking members) he apparently decides who gets banned (just for pointing out the website’s inconsistencies) and also defends the site in a manner that makes it appear as if HE’S the decision maker (while there are other, less ranking users who try to brown-nose in the forums, Witcher comes across as if he’s locked at the hip with the website’s creators.)
Even if Witcher hasn’t been on MA since July , he’s still an active member (as of this posting). In other words, the folks who ARE mods and admins validate his behavior. BTW, the band purge was never an issue to me. I only brought it up as an example of MA’s lack of consistency and coherency.
“So how can anyone (of either side of the debate) take Metal Archives seriously?”
Because it’s a vast source of metal info.
Interesting perspective on the archives there, cody. I’m hoping you’re not more than… 17 years old? Sorry, that’s not fair, let me be a little more diplomatic, haha.
The amusing thing about the archive detractors is the way they read these nefarious motivations into the actions of the site’s users. Taking the genre classification of their favourite band as a personal insult, they can’t seem to help themselves from characterizing the site as being populated by evil elitists who secretly know that Slipknot and Linkin Park and Avril Lavigne’s heavier songs are pure metal but reject them to feed their own fragile egos. No, it certainly can’t be a legitimate difference of opinion, they certainly can’t have tangible reasons for considering certain bands ‘not metal’ that have been discussed endlessly on the forums over the last decade.
I find your attempt at illustrating what standards make something metal quite amusing as well. You should open your own archive with these standards (except we already have rockdetector… so never mind). I assume you aren’t a guitarist? I ask this since it seems absolutely absurd that you fail to note the VAST difference in riffing style between (for example) Slayer at the height of their RIB era thrashyness and Slipknot in their numetal heyday.
Here’s an exercise you can try at home: go look at a tab for “Angel Of Death”, then go look at a tab for “(sic)”. Note which one looks closer to the pure metal prototype created by Sabbath, Priest and Maiden and note which one looks closer to Biohazard, Rammstein and Godsmack (although since these bands have ‘heavily distorted guitars’ and ‘aggressive vocals’ as well this point might be lost on you). Hopefully this will give you some idea of the quantifiable differences that MA users cite between metal and its heavy nonmetal cousins. That’s right: MA seeks to define metal as something distinct, instead of grouping all heavy music under the same label. The standards have nothing to do with offending you by excluding bands you like just because the admins don’t like them, they have everything to do with an ambitious attempt to create a standard of metalness that is useful and reliable. There is no one ‘true’ definition of metal, you have yours and MA has theirs. I just hope that the detractors here can realize that although they may have been a devotee of technical metalcore for two years they have not inherited a magical ability to divine metalness in bands with greater accuracy than the largest and most successful internet metal community. Cut them a little slack.
anonymous metalperson- First of all, quit being a condecending doucher. Secondly, MA does NOT have their definition of metal, that’s the whole point. Its made up of non-unified opinions of elitist mods who go out of their way to exclude bands that are commonly accepted, by actual metal fans, as being metal. Next, there is a HUGE difference between Rammstein, Biohazard, Slipknot and Godsmack, how the hell can you even throw them in there? I think Rammstein qualifies as metal, and while Biohaard tends to be more hardcore, they had crossover songs that were just as relevant to metal as Suicidal Tendencies and D.R.I. There is no discernable difference between the metal qualifications of any Slayer riff in comparison to any Slipknot riff as I mentioned above.
So… I guess I was correct in assuming you weren’t a guitarist, since you failed to address my example in any way. Also you’re one of those who thinks Rammstein is metal, as I feared (guess you think Laibach is metal too?). How about Hatebreed or Godsmack? Buckcherry? But really, if your ears don’t register a difference between percussive drop-tuned chugging and thrash metal riffing, and you don’t realize that one is derived directly from the classic heavy metal pioneers while the other draws upon modern hardcore and hard rock, then I’m not sure how much I can help you. Regardless, I hope you’re beginning to see the point of this exercise: we are having a legitimate difference of opinion(!). It is based on musical facts, not on me hating your favourite bands. This is what happens between MA and the detractors, but the detractors, being in an inferior position of power, refuse to recognize it as a difference of opinion and instead attribute it to elitist oppression. I hope you can begin to recognize this as well – unless you actually believe, in the arguments on this page, that you are trying to convince others of the TRUE definition of metal. If you think your personal understanding is the TRUE one and mine is false and the MA standard is false, then I might suggest that you are the one with the elitist attitude?
Oh and there you go again, criticizing those phantom elitists who exclude bands accepted by metal by ‘actual metal fans.’ That’s the whole point: MA doesn’t rely on popular opinions of metalness, they have created their own standard. It is the standard of a certain very large and influential metal community (made up by ‘actual metal fans’ too!) and (as has been repeated here extensively) the line must be drawn somewhere. The site is a community effort, of course there will be some disagreement among that community on where that line ought to be! I’m sure you’d rather the site use your personal definition of metal (which is laughably ambiguous and useless) but they don’t. The MA standard is not perfectly lucid – how could it be? It is the effort of a community of individuals that do not always agree. It is not, however, unknowable: read the rules, read the hundreds of discussions on the definition of metal that have taken place at the site. Politely ask questions or PM people at the forums, or participate in one of the ‘what defines metal?’ threads that pops up every few months. Just be prepared to back up your disagreements: ‘everyone knows Rammstein is metal, why aren’t they on this site???’ won’t get you very far. Your motley collection of metal’s defining characteristics posted above won’t get you much farther.
Personally I think the site’s definition is too universal, and would remove quite a few bands were I in charge. Of course, I don’t complain about this, and I don’t assume the evil mods are out to get me just because my personal definition of metal differs from theirs. It’s not a conspiracy. The mods don’t reject bands because they hate them. They aren’t out to get you. They’re just ‘actual metal fans’ who have opinions about metal which are different from yours (and from each other).
Percussive drop tuned chugging? So what your saying is bands that drop tune their instruments and make “chugging” riffs are automatically ruled out as being metal? I guess that rules out Fear Factory, Meshuggah, Sepultura and Obituary amongst a bazillion other metal bands from being metal. Also, your “thrash metal riffing” is no more than punk riffs combined with classic NWOBHM licks, which has very little to do with Black Sabbath besides the all encompassing influence that Sabbath has on every heavy music project from here to Mars, and don’t go all “Symptom of the Universe” on me, because that is a bullshit excuse to try and prove yourself right. If you don’t know what I mean by that then you shouldn’t be having this debate with me. Godsmack and Buckcherry are clearly not metal, and again, they have very little to do with any band we listed, including your inclusion of Hatebreed who ARE metal, and coincidentally, have a primary influence of a certain Slayer which can clearly be heard in the riffs they use.
Listen, I don’t have a “true” definition of metal, but if I were to ever start a site that claims to be a resource of education for the masses, you can bet your ass I’d have a clear set of guidelines about what my site deemed metal. MA does NOT have this, they just have a few rules that say what can and cannot be included whilst using terms such as “mallcore” which is about as elitist of a term as you could possibly get. Morrigan and Co can realistically do whatever the fuck they want to do, but if some 15 year old comes up to me and says Ripper era Priest is mallcore, I am going to have to slap a bitch.
Oh, and you didn’t do shit to explain to me why Slipknot, in your opinion, is not metal.
Slipknot isn’t metal because he doesn’t like it.
Which is basically the whole story. All these pages of fucking arguing, the whole point is MA is a bunch of snobby metal dudes that only own black shirts and look down their nose at anything with any production value. I say who cares, fuckem. They don’t like BTBAM, who cares. Fuckem. End of story.
IT’S JUST MUSIC.
Autumn, check the IP addresses. Come on man, don’t resort to groundless allegations.
Nobody else seems to want to come out and admit it, so I’ll do it for them:
Slipknot, Bring Me The Horizon, Hatebreed ARE all bands that contain enough elements of metal to be considered as such, but they’re just plain old embarassing in comparison to good metal. Despite acknowledging these bands as metal, I usually refer to them as hard rock or hardcore when discussing them because bands like these feel like stains on metal’s good name. That’s how the MA mods/admins are, too, but their buttholes are just puckered up too tightly for them to admit it. I wouldn’t include them either if I were in charge because then we’d get a flood of emo/angst-ridden 12 year olds bombarding the forums with discussions about Bullet For My Valentine and Blink 182. Is it an elitist way of thinking? Hell yes, but it’s the best way to keep the site at least moderately respectable in the metal community. Witcher’s just an asshole, though, and he took the elitism a little too far (and so are some of the archive-humpers posting here).
In the end, though, does it really make a difference anyways? The only bands they seem to be excluding are hugely popular ones like Slipknot and their ilk so it’s not like they’re depriving anyone of discovering these bands as I’m sure everyone and their grandmother has heard of them already regardless of the archives.
I feel much better admittied Slipknot and Bring me the Horizon are metal than admitting that any of that Glam Metal shit from the 80s is metal.
This post goes out to both Cody and Wanz (sorry I couldn’t separate this post be to you both).
“Protest the Hero is WAY more metal than Cynic’s latest album, just to use your name as a reference point.”
-I can’t particulary see myself comparing the two, but I agree Cynic’s latest release is barely metal. I would even name my favourite band Cynic as part of the list which should be reviewed as to their inclusion in MA.
“Cynic, I challenge you to make a list of what trademark sounds that make up heavy metal, and the compare it to a Protest the Hero album.”
-How about I pose a question to you instead to prove how illogical your challenge is? Is Limp Bizkit metal? How about The Rolling Stones? Bach? Either you have a bar for metal, or everything is metal (much like Deontology vs. Relativism really). MA (an undeniable hub of the metal community) just has a different bar to yours. Quoting myself – “you are sorely out of touch with the metal community if you think Protest The Hero is metal.”
“And you think that metal labels and bands are just there because of their love for the music?”
-I never said anything about labels. But good bands yes. In fact, I laugh at the fact you have a site which you so readily accept is dedicated to a genre of shallow artists desperately trying to sell CDs so they can avoid 9-5 jobs. You have a very high view of metal don’t you?
“The only comment that I really scoff at is the statement that EM is so large, because it has standards”
-Well maybe the fact that isn’t the crux of the reason, I so will recind that statement if you wish Wanz, but I firmly believe it is part of the reason. It does of course, have multitudes more contributors than any magazine like Revolver.
“Why not call someone new to the site something else? Novice would be great”
-Well I suppose mallcore is funnier, and it helps to reinforce the quite obvious MA rule that excludes mallcore bands.
Nice post anonymous metalperson.
I think a microcosm of this argument can be summed up with ludicrous irony by “coled24″ post in this thread:
“Yeah BTBAM has NO hardcore influence whatsoever. And Bring Me The Horizon is just really really straightforward Deathcore which has no hardcore roots despite its name. Encyclopedia Metallum is just a website for stupid assholes that like to bicker about genres.”
“-How about I pose a question to you instead to prove how illogical your challenge is? Is Limp Bizkit metal? How about The Rolling Stones? Bach? Either you have a bar for metal, or everything is metal (much like Deontology vs. Relativism really). MA (an undeniable hub of the metal community) just has a different bar to yours. Quoting myself – “you are sorely out of touch with the metal community if you think Protest The Hero is metal.””
Thing about that is that Metallum’s bar, as “strict,” and “elitist” as it’s supposed to be, is severely uneven.
How does one go about classing Thin Lizzy and Rush as metal, while refusing to acknowledge a ton of other, more consistent metal artists from the same era?
Hell, even the absolute most borderline hard rock groups to get classed as metal outside of Metallum (Like AC/DC and Aerosmith) are about as metal as Lizzy, even during the 1980s apex of Lizzy’s metal output.
While I do admire their honest exclusion of Deathcore artists on the (true) grounds that Deathcore almost collectively sucks (and is admired primarily by scenetarded posers), it is fairly clearly more metal than ‘core.’
I’m not saying I disapprove on that one. I’m just saying it’s as metal as most of the other stuff on the archives.
Really, the motivation for excluding all nu metal acts obviously comes from the same place.
If I’m not mistaken, someone was arguing earlier in this thread that Slipknot’s use of blast-beats was probably jazz inspired. No offense intended, but that was bat-shit ridiculous.
Besides the fact that double-bass drumming in jazz sounds nothing like Slipknot’s usage, it’s also less prevalent in jazz than in metal, and even rock in general. Considering Slipknot seem to consider themselves “T3H METALEST THING EVER OMG!111″ the chances of them so much as knowing about double-bass drumming in jazz music are extremely slim, and even if they know about, they aren’t doing it.
Everything about Slipknot seems to be in a metal vein. More specifically, they seem like a shitty, watered-down Mr. Bungle clone, and this is echoed in every aspect of their being.
But that sort of ridiculously desperate argument in opposition to their being classed as “metal” showcases, in my opinion, that Metallum’s classifications are often based on whether or not they see a band favourably.
Few people over 13 can look at nu metal as a genre on the whole, and say “Wow, that was so cool.”
Lot of butthurt people here… Oh well… “When lovers of metal clash only buttache remains”
Reality check people; it’s just fucken music! Get over it! All butthurt Protest the hero and BTBAM fans put on some fucken lotion and go listen to all your rejected metal bands for your own enjoyment. You like it. The EM dudes don’t, so fuck em, who gives a rat’s ass what they think? Are you so afraid that their negative opinion about your favourite music might affect you? Are you that insecure in your own taste of music? Isn’t the most important thing about the music that YOU like it?
All you butthurt EM fans and metal elitists GROW UP. Your “elite” metal music isn’t better than my Three Days Grace records nor are those records better than yours. Fuck your opinion about what’s metal or not because metal fans are a miniority and your bithcing about how Winds of Plague sucks isn’t helping! Making the genre more or less exclusive within walls of requirement won’t make more or less people listen to it!
Not only are metal fans bitching about how mainstream music sucks and is an inferior form of music (which it isn’t, there is no inferior or superior in music, only likes and dislikes), but they also bitch about how one band is more or less “metal” than the other. What difference does it make?! None! If you like something, whether it’s metal music or pop, nothing should stop you from listening to it! “Oh Noes my trve gr1m bl@ck metal cd pressed in only sixteen hand-numbered CDs actually has a shred of triggers on the drums!!!! Now I can’t listen to it because it’s not trve anymore!! waaaaaaah!” Jesus fucken Christ… And all these ridiculous arguments about “It’s not metal because it’s not played in a “metal-way” are just stupid; if we followed this reasoning there wouldn’t be any other styles of metal than Metal, death metal wouldn’t be death metal it would be just “Death musicthingie” cause the playing style doesn’t follow the “regular” metal style…
Metal to me is a feeling rather than a musical artform played in a specific manner.
If I could decide over EM i would take out the “metal” and replace it with music; making it a site with the same purpose, but rather than just publishing information about metal I would include all forms of music. ALL FORMS, GENRES AND VARIANTS. Cause that’s all this is about; music. Fucken losers.
Dumbazz – You call us losers, yet you come onto a “metal blog” about a topic involving “metal” to chastise us and not bring anything to the table. Yup, WE’RE the losers alright…
You (and I mean you Cody) are a spiteful,annoying prick.
You believe your self to be some sort of a metal savant,which is obviously not a case.
Sure there is a lot of bullshit on EM (Karl Sanders’ project for one),but you genuinely think that you know it all about what is and what isn’t metal.
What differentiates a metal band from a could be metal band is just it;when you hear a metal band you say “yeah,this is metal” and not “I dunno,I suppose this could be metal if you simplify it to the bone”.
Ok, sorry I apologize to you all. Honestly! I got caught up in the moment and I was extremly rude and I’m sorry… I just think it’s sad (as in the emo way, not in the “you’re all so fucken sad” way) that metal fans fight eachother over such silly things like “What’s metal or not”, because metal is, somewhat, growing today because of mainstream attention and the likes, but who knows how long that will hold until metal is “uncool” (or whatever it’s supposed to be so it’s justifiable to ignore it) again. Sure everyone knows that artists like Beyoncé and Britney Spears aren’t metal, but when it comes to discussions about whether for example Slipknot or BTBAM is metal, or if Dark Funeral is black metal, or not I just get annoyed. I find them pointless (please explain why they’re not if you disagree cause I can’t really see why people are having them…Seriously I don’t get it…). Isn’t it actually a plus if you start calling more things metal? It increases the fan-base in a genre that is kind of small in comparison to the mainstream one and that is a plus, right? More > Less
Ok maybe we shouldn’t start calling Creed or Nickelback metal, but maybe take those mallcore and nu-metal bands and let them join the fun; everyone but the metal crowd consider them metal so it wouldn’t make that much of a difference. And instead of shunning people over the internet for listening to Mallcore (which is an annoying tag for people new to the EM site, call them Newbie/Beginner/n00b instead; just saying) and nu-metal introduce them to bands you like “Ok, you like Slipknot, if you like the heavier songs then you might like…”. THAT might even help win some people over to the so-called “real” metal-crowd. Opening with “You suck cause you like those gay non-metal bands” is kind of contra-productive; just saying.
Again I want to apologize for not adding anything to the discussion and calling you all losers.
Now to join the discussion for reelz (cool internet lingo I don’t get…) I think that the moderators opinion of what is metal or not, or rather what they LIKE or not, over-shadows what one would call the “somewhat real guide-lines of what is metal and what isn’t” (out November 4th 2012 on DVD and Blu-ray). I can understand why they do it since it’s their own game they’re playing, so they set the rules, but that doesn’t make it right; especially since the few guide-lines they have doesn’t apply to all the bands included in the archives (nor are they applied correctly to those excluded). One prime-example would be Cintecele Diavolui a Darkwave/Ambient project featuring Mortiis (ex-Emperor and bla bla bla). Mainly composed out of synth sounds and industrial noise, with not a shred of guitar, drums or bass. Is a band allowed to be included even though it doesn’t have anything to do with metal music-wise? Is Mortiis “name” heavier than the actual Metal? Yet you can exclude bands like Hatebreed, Suicide Silence, Protest The Hero and BTBAM, and so many others, because of…. what? Bad hair-do’s?
Vaseline for Cody – Fantastic name! I don’t think I am chaffing though, so you may want to hold onto it and re-name yourself.
Why do you preach nonsense man,and when someone gives you a valid arguement you’re suddenly all on the defence (and you guarantee that it is impossible to differ a Slayer riff from Slipknot riff,wtf?).
This is not a metal site,this is a trashing site where you blow off your frustration (probably penis issues).
And why do you even annoy people with this EM crap,if you don’t like it go to fuckin’ Spirit of Metal;they accept all kind of crap.
“Why do you preach nonsense man,and when someone gives you a valid arguement you’re suddenly all on the defence (and you guarantee that it is impossible to differ a Slayer riff from Slipknot riff,wtf?).”
Your argument was neither valid nor relevant.
The fact that he mocked you as opposed to actually responding seriously to your insult-laced straw man only solidifies this.
“This is not a metal site,this is a trashing site where you blow off your frustration (probably penis issues).”
I was under the impression that it was a blog about metal.
“And why do you even annoy people with this EM crap,”
You came here, apparently.
Do you just seek out ways to get butthurt or something?
“if you don’t like it go to fuckin’ Spirit of Metal;they accept all kind of crap.”
Didn’t they used to have an “emo metal” classification or something?
I’m not sure how you could come to the conclusion that groups like Aiden and Bloodhound Gang have as much validity as the bands OP listed do. Then again, looking at Spirit of Metal again, now, they’ve refined a bit. Still loose, but a bit better than last time.
Can’t we all just get along. Fuck the labels. Somebody put on some Sabbath or Metallica, or Dream Theater or something hard, and let’s rock!
I haven’t been on this site in a while. I looked back at the archive to Novemebr 3rd, and noticed that Matt was scoffing at my listening to Priest in 1975. He was telling me that I’m full of shit, because I was too young to have listened to metal in the 70s. I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that when you are 4 or 5 years old that you listen to what you’re dad listens to. Because of my father, I was most definitely listening to those bands. It’s obvious that maybe Matt’s tastes weren’t shaped by his father at an early age. He, also, probably doesn’t have any children, because if he did he would automatically realize that a child listens to what a parent plays. I have a 3 year old right now that sings along to Witchfinder General’s “Music” every time I put it in the car stereo. In the end, I’m not sure why people question things they know nothing about, and especially when they weren’t present to know anything about it.
First, I need to clarify something. I consider neither of the three bands to be metal, the first two being a sort of technical metalcore and BMTH being straight out metalcore. Attaching the term “progressive” to either of the three bands is ludicrous and laughable. SikTh is progressive, these bands are not. I’m not saying that they are bad now (well, I AM saying that BMTH is bad, there) but they are not metal, and I cannot consider them metal without further widening and amending the already bloated definition of it. Now, with that out of the way; MA is run by children and retards! Either that or they need to get off their high horse and own up to many of the inconsistencies they’ve been the cause of. Removing the aforementioned bands and leaving bands such as Job For A Cowboy, Waking The Cadaver, RUSH! Yes, Rush, which is about as metal as Radiohead but because they are a favourite of one of the staff members (I presume) they are tolerated. Personally I love Rush, but keeping them, as well as a plethora of certified hard rock bands on the roster makes the proprietors of MA the biggest hypocrites on the face of the earth as well as the candidates for the Lifetime Achievement Tosser Award, nominated in all categories. I am simply awestruck by how far up their arses have their heads burrowed in. I was somewhat surprised and disappointed to find out just how narrow-minded most metalheads are, quite possibly the most obnoxious bunch of self-proclaimed intellectuals that perused the internet. Now I don’t mind the downright pants-on-head retarded Neanderthal Manowar fans, but the fuckers who actually display some elements of the homo-sapiens species but decide to settle for stubborn idiocy, those are the worst. The type of metalheads that are the FIRST to tell you their own (retarded) opinion(s) on the subject of: hip-hop, pop, techno and other “wuss” genres of music and all of them, TO A MAN, will pull a huge picket out of their arse (removing their heads from there for that brief moment) with the slogan ” IS NOT MUSIC”. I mean, just check this quote out: “Rap is for thug, it’s bring hatred and intolerance to young people minds, we must stop this plague !!” I rest my case. Is it possible to hold that much contempt against a group of people? I certainly hope so, and I certainly hope that someone will outdo me one day. Or already has. I must note, however, that there are a choice few people who listen to metal (but have displayed a decided lack of proclaiming themselves as metalheads) that I consider to be decent and even intelligent human beings. But they are so scarce it’s embarrassing and defeating. So fuck metalheads, I don’t care if you accuse me of generalisation, fuck them all. The world would be a better place without them. And as for you Metal Archives, if you’re reading this, FUCK YOU TOO.
Man, that was a very entertaining read from RobAnybody. I totally agree regarding Rush. I stated the same thing earlier in this blog regarding Def Leppard. I have been a metalhead for a long time, but it doesn’t define everything that I do in my life. I’m also a teacher, a husband , and a father. I have other priorities in my life, but I’ve always favored metal as my choice of music and my hobby. Some people consider it a way of life, and get all caught up in it and it consumes them. Some metal fans, but not all, almost get involved in it, because they are searching for something to identify with. A secure person, however, can listen to the music and be a fan, but doesn’t need it for identification purposes. It’s only my opinion, but to me metal has always been about doing your own thing. It has been about not succumbing to trends, and shunning stereotypes. Therefore, metal fans going out and looking like they came straight out of the 80s and fitting the metal stereotype almost goes against what metal has always stood for to begin with. But then again, I guess, even people who are embracing the stereotype probably consider themselves to be doing their own thing. But, I do know how closed minded some metalheads can be. Somehow, I never got the idea that they cared about the label. I’m just throwin’ out a few thoughts.
I think topical encyclopedias should err on the side of inclusion. I’d like to see everything from Oceano to GNR in the Archives.
listen to blackened(metallica cover) by BTAMB ………. as metal as it gets….
Hey. Cody, I agree with what you’re trying to say here, but honestly, does it really matter. Hell a good percentage of my favorite “Metal” bands aren’t considered metal on EM, but what come on, who made them the all knowing holy grail of metal? One of the most fantastic things about metal that I find is the diversity in within the genre. Two bands that are universally considered metal can have pretty much nothing in common in terms of sound but still both be metal bands. Sad thing is when a something as diverse as metal comes around there are going to be elitists. Lots of them.
it’s quite sad that they take the whole community aspect of metal and completely destroy it by having bigoted views and excluding entire sub genres of metal and their fans. But you have to remember. These people who are on EM don’t really care if the song sounds good, only if it follows a very delicate formula and doesn’t sell out and become all “mallcore”. Fuck that. They have no souls. Ignore them. Does it stop you or me from liking a band such as slipknot or disturbed or anything else? No, it doesn’t. And if they want to whine about it not being metal, let them. They honestly have as much control over what genre a band is as I have control over NASA.
There are tonnes other publications out there with much more influence than a shitty website. I mean , do you think the guys at roadrunner give two shits what an elitist website thinks about their bands? Not at all. Does it bands like slipknot/ a7x etc from playing to huge crowds full of metalheads? Not at all. Let them be.
Peace bro